From the Times Ledger:
Queens public schools lead the city in overcrowded classrooms, according to a survey the United Federation of Teachers took of school registers on the sixth day of class this year.
Classroom sizes are expected to fluctuate during the first few weeks of school, but the survey found the borough had the largest number of oversized elementary and junior high school classrooms with 802. The most overcrowded high school in the city is Benjamin Cardozo in Bayside with 307 insufficient classrooms and No. three is Long Island City High School with 207 overcrowded classrooms.
With 212 overcrowded classrooms, District 27 — which covers schools in Ozone Park, South Ozone Park, Woodhaven, Richmond Hill and Howard Beach — was the worst of the city’s 32 community school districts. Overall, Queens had a city-high 802 overcrowded classrooms.
Classroom sizes are limited by the union’s contract, and the UFT said it plans to take the DOE to arbitration in order to bring down those oversized classrooms.
The city Department of Education plans to release its final register some time before Jan. 1.
23 comments:
what is the average size of a classroom in a Catholic school vs the size of a public school classroom?
And in standardized test results, can we compare the two classrooms ?
Can't compare! any private school has the right to limit its population. they don't have to take handicapped children or one with neurological problems (CP for example) or mental problems (downs sydrome). Private schools can also permentently expell students. They can require foriegn language students to take language lessons (to learn english)
One school population has their pick of who they take--kids who are prepared for school, (and arrive in 1st grade knowing ABC's and numbers).
Ones who got a good nights sleep, who got a good breakfast, who's parents groom them (wash them, and their hair and their clothes)
One school system has take all every one.
Its much easier to teach in a classroom with some conformity--children who are ready for school and another to teach in a classroom with children half asleep (because they went to bed at 10 PM) with children who are hyper (because they had soda and candy or other junk food for breakfast) or with mainstreamed children who need extra attention.
and since the days of nuns and priests as the primary teacher has passed--and most parochial (Catholic or otherwise) schools have lay teacher, with a union and class size is way down over the 1950's and 1960's--when baby boomers swelled school population. but even then, parochial schools had the threat of expulsion. and public school don't have (not to the same degree)
The Issue of overcrowded Classrooms is actually about union membership. Students and learning are secondary to the union. Wake up folks.
The Issue of overcrowded Classrooms is actually about union membership. Students and learning are secondary to the union. Wake up folks.
How do you figure that? Do your realize that your average class in the NYC public school system has 30 students? Do you know that every study shows that the ideal class size is 15 - 20 pupils? Stop the Union Bashing and trying to divert the attention away from the problem.
And the giant elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is illegal immigration. Crack down on that shit and there will be plenty of room for small classes.
It makes me laugh these people who defend illegal immigration then bitch that their classrooms are too crowded.
But no, these are the same folks that think building new schools all over the place in inappropriate and contaminated locations is fantastic because it "creates jobs."
certain protected public schools in well connected areas
copy the parochial system of K-8 th grade. their protected children do not have to leave the community until they qualify for a private /parochial test entry school. no busing away from home.
check the K-8's in Staviskey and Weprin's community. PS's 169 (Bay Terrace) and 178 (Hollis Hills).
all other elementary Queens schools have been changed to K-5, then bused to a failing and congested 6-12 grade buildings,along with jhs and h.s age, "pupils" bused from the borough.
many parents exited the I.S. and J.H.S. grades ,when the low test scores and safety factors became evident.
nyc public education costs $20,000. per pupil/per year. and a $21 BILLION YEARLY BUDGET.
parochial /private cost is $5000. per year/per pupil.
the child has a 99% chance of graduating with a true math and english comprehension ability.
the scores in the public system seem to be faked,in past years. local colleges require remedial H.S/ and J.H.S courses for many of them.
see the D.O.E.website for classroom size and a data in October, for your childs pubic school.
The Issue of overcrowded Classrooms is actually about union membership. Students and learning are secondary to the union. Wake up folks.
How do you figure that? Do your realize that your average class in the NYC public school system has 30 students? Do you know that every study shows that the ideal class size is 15 - 20 pupils? Stop the Union Bashing and trying to divert the attention away from the problem.
---
That's easy. The smaller the class size, the more teachers required. The more teachers, the more union members. It's a reprise on the same sort of work rules that, in an industrial setting, pushed jobs into less union-worshiping states if not out of the country completely.
Getting back to the core issue of class size, as far as I'm concerned, small clase size is merely a shibboleth that teachers use as an excuse not to work hard enough to get their jobs done.
I went to public school in one of the wealthiest systems in the country, and I don't recall an elementary school class of less than 23 students. My high school chemistry class was so crowded that, if you didn't get there early, you sat on the windowsill because all of the seats were full. Yet the teacher was top-notch (and refused to join the union, which I have always taken as a sign of his commitment to excellence) and those of us who wanted to learn, did. I recall pulling a 748 on my Chemistry [SAT] Achievement test, so I have no complaints. The freaks stayed stoned and didn't do so well (I recall them sniffing the reagent bottles to see what happened), but the fact is, they were too out of it to complain, either--and a 15-student class wouldn't have saved them from themselves.
@ A.C. The Hoover institute Disagrees
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6948
Chaminade H.S. One of the best in the COuntry has an average Class size of 35-40 Students.
THose are just two citations
Face it, the UFT has been holding our children hostage.
Diverting attention from the problem is exactly what the UFT has been engaging in. THe problem is motivation at home and UFT defending 2nd rate teachers who shouldn't be teaching.
Chaminade H.S. has students whose families have the resources needed to succeed. If not a two parent household, access to all the tutoring, and whatever else they may need. Not a fair comparison. I grew up going to private school with parents that did not speak English. They did whatever they had to to get me help if I needed it. Different times with a different value system. Think of all those taught by UFT members who went thru the system and did well. Ask Yourself why. The family structure, both parents on top of their children. In the rare event (back then it was rare) that the parents were divorced or seperated, they both were active in the education of their children.
We need to stop with political correctedness and call it like it is. Yes the UFT has problem teachers, yes the NYC DOE has their share of bad teachers. I will tell you this, the problem is much bigger than the unions. Yet the powers that be allow and help the class warfafe between union workers and the rest. All the while the attention is taken away from them tripling their net worth while the union workers along with the rest of us fight it out.
OfTroy
I'll stand by my original post.
A public school should have the right to limit it's population. And it has been done in NYC for many years. Brooklyn Tech, Bronx HS of Science limit their populations to students that want to learn.
Inside a single building you can limit populations in classes to the ones that are most likely to succeed.
Why hurt a hardworking students by putting bad eggs in their class.
A class of 30-40 good students is better then a class of 20 students with 2 bad eggs.
@ Queens Crapper Damn right !!!! You took the words right out my mouth !!!!
This is an issue that has plagued Queens for a 100 years.
By every measure, schools, hospital beds, Queens has lagged behind the rest of the city - big time.
This is what happens when you have second rate electeds and a weak civic culture that should be applying pressure that benefits the community - rather than being little more than props for a politician's photo op.
And until those two change, nothing else will.
Catholic schools are overcrowded as well...my kids' class had 33 students when he graduated two years ago. Cathlic school is notcheap and you are not getting teachers who are truly dedicated...you are getting teachers who don't have enough college credits to get a degree. Shopper beware...
If the quality of teachers is so bad why do so many Catholic school graduates attend college? Why do you say they are not dedicated? WTF does that mean? Many qualified teachers CHOOSE to teach in Catholic schools because they can afford to live on a lower salary and don't want to deal with the animals that inhabit public schools. I know several parents who pulled their kids out of public school and put them in Catholic school. Smart move.
Yes and public school teachers are all dedicated and not just putting in their 20 and then retiring to Florida after demanding more money every other year while test scores plummet. Please spare us.
Yes and public school teachers are all dedicated and not just putting in their 20 and then retiring to Florida after demanding more money every other year while test scores plummet. Please spare us.
///////////////////////////////////
You must have gone to privates school for you did not do your homework and it shows. Public school teachers are not Sanitation, Police , nor Firefighters. They are not 20 and out.
If you had a NYC Public School teacher you would have known to do your HW!! TSK TSK!
Get the skinny on any school.
http://www.iboeducation.us/
wait, i thought the census said we didnt grow that much? Oh, wait, they only counted the people who were willing to be counted. nevermind.
Gee, i wonder who all these people are? What kind of person would take advantages of social services, free education, etc, etc, and NOT be willing to report on a census because it means opening the door for a 'government employee'? Gee, i just cant figure it out!
in 1981, C.S.D 26 was forced to close two elementary schools by Chancellor Macchiarola and Mayor Ed. Koch , P.S.130 Q (400 pupils) and P.S.177 Q (# 10 0f 600 nyc elem. schools) in Auburndale ,Queens. the D.O.E. claimed that the district schools on whole were extremely under utilized ,( some 30-50%) .
the P.S.130 community legally stopped the closing,(after a 8 year fight) of it's local school, but it was given to C.S.D.25. 25 never allowed any local pupils living across the street from the building enrollment.
they bused 300 pupils from main street ,flushing into the building for 25 years to the present. at high taxpayer cost. the locals were bused away at very high cost.
the now K-3 school ,with 80% asian pupils(possible anchor babies) from main st. ,received the 2011 National Blue Ribbon Schools award for excellence in math and English language arts, this month.
the teachers are mostly master degree and Columbia Teachers College trained.
the times-ledger says the pupils are disadvantaged and some receive free lunches?????
so the socialists closed a school with 400 ,walking local, pupils and replaced them with 300,out of town ,bused in, possible Asian illegal alien's children.
now you know why you are taxed outrageously by the progressive/liberal socialists.
did your child score 100%in math and English Language Arts at level 4,in their NYS tests. maybe they did not have the same quality teachers as the pupils at P.S.130Q?
some protected correct voting populations are given
an edge.
BTW, Alabama public schools,in September lost many pupils. they simply disappeared silently. could the new state laws of checking the illegal alien population with more scrutiny be the result. i believe the state can require info. on the alien"s children also.
obviously the obama government is opposing the state law.
if I.C.E in NYS keeps up the pressure, more school seats will be available here.
Alabama's been seriously cracking down on all that immigration stuff via driving.
A large part of it is due to a loophole that allows illegal’s to get drivers licenses and car registrations with no checks in Tennessee and the Carolinas where insurance is optional.
However they ARE required to carry auto insurance to drive those cars in Alabama.
The Alabama cops simply started pulling over cars and LOCKING THEM UP and/or impounding taking away the cars.
You’re royally screwed in most of Alabama or Mississippi without a legal car.
Sadly this wont work in New York city since most the illegal’s dont need a car and can use the public transportation infrastructure.
Lets not forget the liberal democrat sanctuary city polices that attract these parasites like flies and maggots festering on garbage in the first place.
Bloomberg protects all these maggots as if they were North American Bald Eagles !
Re: Anonymous said...
Catholic schools are overcrowded as well...my kids' class had 33 students when he graduated two years ago. Cathlic school is notcheap and you are not getting teachers who are truly dedicated...you are getting teachers who don't have enough college credits to get a degree. Shopper beware...
------
Not enough college credits? Really, college credits have not so much to do with getting a teaching certification. Yes, you need a certain number and in certain subjects, but if you had a BA, MA, or PhD in the subject you wanted to teach it wouldn't get you a teaching certification. You'd have to go back to school to get 21 credits in Education, followed by another 21 for the Masters in Ed, or one of the other variations of an education graduate degree. On the other hand, you could have a BA, MA, or PhD in Education and the bare minimum of credits in your subject and be welcomed with open arms by the public education system. Which teacher would you prefer to have, the one who loves the subject he/she is teaching or the one who took the education classes?
"so the socialists closed a school with 400 ,walking local, pupils and replaced them with 300,out of town ,bused in, possible Asian illegal alien's children."
See, this is what is known as a "straw man"argument.
I won't waste a lot of time on you:
-How can you call the "out of town"-when they are from Queens?
Why do you insinuate that they were "illegals" and "anchor babies"?
No one should automatically hold up private ot church schools as some paragons of excellence.
These schools administer ALL citywide and standardized tests and thus have control of the reported results.
I went to two of the "best" privates: Dalton and Rhodes (and an awful one called Bentley)
I saw the same number of dunces there as I did in PS6M. In fact the testing was less rigorous and if your parents could maybe "donate" a little above tuition, presto! -you were a "gifted child".
Post a Comment